When they entered special full time service, they did. The vow, at least in the US, only applies to income derived from work. Income derived from retirement, investment or other means does not violate the vow.
Richard Oliver
JoinedPosts by Richard Oliver
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12
What is the vow of poverty
by Jafox ini was told by someone that in 2007 two members of the branch committee in greece were removed because they breached the vow of poverty.
the matter was over a small amount, in the range of a few hundred euro.
is there a copy of this vow available and how would this be applied here?
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12
What is the vow of poverty
by Jafox ini was told by someone that in 2007 two members of the branch committee in greece were removed because they breached the vow of poverty.
the matter was over a small amount, in the range of a few hundred euro.
is there a copy of this vow available and how would this be applied here?
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Richard Oliver
The vow is mostly used so that everyone who enter the order knows what the responsibilities are towards that order. I don't get why so many people on this site is so irritated to this vow. The people who sign it is free to sign it or not, they are of majority age and have read it and agreed to it. No one forces anyone to enter into this vow, if someone doesn't want to they are free to do so, they just won't be in special full time service.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
The report submitted by the ARC does not question her ability as an Expert Witness. They just dismissed her findings in whole. Again they are politicians who don't want to look to be to lax on things that will lose them support.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
So you feel that she is not an expert for what reason. Because she holds a Masters and Ph.D. in Social Work. That she has conducted more that 1800 root cause investigations into institutions and child abuse. That she has worked in 11 countries or regions around the world. That no other expert filed any testimony that contradicted her testimony. Or is it because she did not cow-tow to the ARC counsel of assertions.
BTW. The ARC counsel did not question her ability as an expert witness. They just dismissed her findings off hand.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Please explain to me in the ARC transcript where the due process is? Explain where the cross-examination of witnesses is? Show me where Watchtower was able to present evidence and their own witnesses? In a court of law an expert witness' testimony can be given as much or as little weight as a jury member deems but cannot be and is not just dismissed off hand because that expert witness is paid by one side or the other, that is how expert witnesses work. -
207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. Again you're trying to over simplify things. First of all the ARC is a group of politicians and not a court of law. There is no due process as recognized by any government. What evidence was Watchtower able to present other than one expert witnesses that the Commission dismissed off hand because her testimony did not conform to their findings. No cross-examination of any witnesses, no rules of evidence, any response given by Watchtower was immediately dismissed by the commission again because it did not conform to what they wanted.
Second, you keep claiming that Watchtower prevents people from telling the police. Is there any actual evidence of that other than the testimony in the ARC or from other witnesses in other courts? Is there any objective evidence? The reason I say this is because even eyewitness testimony has proven to be so unreliable that even the Illinois Supreme Court has opened up the door that there has to be other evidence in a criminal trial than just an eyewitness testimony. Also, it is so hard to prove a negative especially to people on this forum that don't care what other evidence is given. There is an example that people use to prove how hard it is to prove a negative. Can you prove to me that you never read a book? No, you can't prove that ever because how can you. In similar fashion How do you want watchtower to prove that they never told people not to go to the police?
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Giordano. That is my point. We sometimes want the law to be cut and dry especially for such a horrific event such as child abuse, but it is not. There are a number of things that allows people to get away with it, within the confines of the law. As I stated earlier if a country has a low age of consent, there is nothing that law enforcement can do. In this case in Lousiana, there is nothing that a prosecutor or law enforcement official can do, they are obeying the legal requirements of the land in which they live. Again is it moral? No. But are they barred from doing anything more? Yes.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
This is why I brought this up. Do I think it is right? Absolutely not. But is it legal according to the laws in certain places in the USA and in other countries? Yes. Again there are countries that are so heavily religious that the privilege laws are so iron clad that there is very little way around it. Not saying that divorce is anything close to child abuse, but still in the Philipines there is no mechanism for divorce. In Israel a man can prevent the divorce unilaterally if he so chooses. I am just highlighting that there are places where religion and the sanctity of religion is almost impossible to get around.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Again outlaw and sparowdown. you try to over simplify things. lets again take the state of Louisiana. No matter what watchtower says as to what elders are, the definition of confession and clergy is defined by statute. No matter what watchtower says the law is the law.
*728 (15) “Mandatory reporter” is any of the following individuals....:* * *(c) “Member of the clergy” is any priest, rabbi, duly ordained clerical deacon or minister, Christian Science practitioner, or other similarly situated functionary of a religious organization, except that he is not required to report a confidential communication, as defined in Code of Evidence Article 511, from a person to a member of the clergy who, in the course of the discipline or practice of that church,**6 denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to hearing confidential communications, and under the discipline or tenets of the church, denomination, or organization has a duty to keep such communications confidential. In that instance, he shall encourage that person to report the allegations to the appropriate authorities in accordance with Article 610.Louisiana Code of Evidence article 511, entitled communications to clergymen, which is referenced in the foregoing Children's Code definitions provision, provides:A. Definitions. As used in this Article:(1) A “clergyman” is a minister, priest, rabbi, Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed so to be by the person consulting him.(2) A communication is “confidential” if it is made privately and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present in furtherance of the purpose of the communication.B. General rule of privilege. A person has a privilege to refuse to disclose and to prevent another person from disclosing a confidential communication by the person to a clergyman in his professional character as spiritual adviser.C. Who may claim the privilege. The privilege may be claimed by the person or by his legal representative. The clergyman is presumed to have authority to claim the privilege on behalf of the person or deceased person. -
207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Sparrowdown- My question still stands. Lets take this case in Louisiana where the law bars a member of the clergy from going to the authorities with knowledge of child abuse if it was given during a confession. The law does not say, it is up to the clergy member, it says that the clergy member is not allowed to report it to authorities. What do you want the congregation to do in a case like that.